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Re: Middlesex

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:55 pm
by glamman
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:29 pm
glamman wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:07 pm Hardly going to leave your club captain out who had not been dismissed in Championship games this season. Lack of a quality spinner becoming an issue.
In my opinion, and I'm probably in a minority of one on this, Cooke's figure's prior to his injury are a red herring.
The team were on a roll, sitting at, or very near, the top of the table for the duration of his absence. That all took place on Lloyd's watch. Taking the captaincy off Lloyd was a mistake, and I don't say that in hindsight, as an earlier post of mine hinted at this. Cooke could have offered to let Lloyd continue as Captain at least for this current game. With the T20 coming up that would have been a good place to be. Failing that Cooke move, Maynard should have made the decision to retain Lloyd as Captain. He made a poor managerial decision in my opinion.

Cullen's dropping was also a poor decision. Where is the loyalty, the encouragement , for these youngsters to feed off ?

As stated earlier, I was anticipating a thrashing, and that's clearly on the cards.
I am not sure how much Lloyd was in charge. Suggestions are that Wagg might have been the real director as shown by him bowling his left arm spin before Morgan.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:34 pm
by Nick_Glam
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:29 pm In my opinion, and I'm probably in a minority of one on this, Cooke's figure's prior to his injury are a red herring.
The team were on a roll, sitting at, or very near, the top of the table for the duration of his absence. That all took place on Lloyd's watch. Taking the captaincy off Lloyd was a mistake, and I don't say that in hindsight, as an earlier post of mine hinted at this. Cooke could have offered to let Lloyd continue as Captain at least for this current game. With the T20 coming up that would have been a good place to be. Failing that Cooke move, Maynard should have made the decision to retain Lloyd as Captain. He made a poor managerial decision in my opinion.

Cullen's dropping was also a poor decision. Where is the loyalty, the encouragement , for these youngsters to feed off ?

As stated earlier, I was anticipating a thrashing, and that's clearly on the cards.
I agree that Cullen should have played ahead of Douthwaite.

But Cooke was always going to return as captain and I think it's too simplistic to suggest that his return caused the failure of our batsmen.

Middlesex have much better players than we do and we have been punching above our weight all season. I think we were all anticipating a thrashing at some point. The only surprise is that it has taken so long this season.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:11 pm
by johnwales
Facing a target in excess of 500 is not exactly encouraging batsmen to pull out all the stops. I guess we should forgive and forget this one, make sure we put in a good performance in the Bash, and then have a concentrated effort to win promotion in our remaining games.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:30 pm
by Vetchetarian
glamman wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:55 pm
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:29 pm
glamman wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:07 pm Hardly going to leave your club captain out who had not been dismissed in Championship games this season. Lack of a quality spinner becoming an issue.
In my opinion, and I'm probably in a minority of one on this, Cooke's figure's prior to his injury are a red herring.
The team were on a roll, sitting at, or very near, the top of the table for the duration of his absence. That all took place on Lloyd's watch. Taking the captaincy off Lloyd was a mistake, and I don't say that in hindsight, as an earlier post of mine hinted at this. Cooke could have offered to let Lloyd continue as Captain at least for this current game. With the T20 coming up that would have been a good place to be. Failing that Cooke move, Maynard should have made the decision to retain Lloyd as Captain. He made a poor managerial decision in my opinion.

Cullen's dropping was also a poor decision. Where is the loyalty, the encouragement , for these youngsters to feed off ?

As stated earlier, I was anticipating a thrashing, and that's clearly on the cards.
I am not sure how much Lloyd was in charge. Suggestions are that Wagg might have been the real director as shown by him bowling his left arm spin before Morgan.
" Suggestions " are just another way of saying " a friend of a friend " etc., and I place NO credibility, or reliability in these uncorroborated statements. Why wasn't Wagg made captain, if what you allude is true ?

Lloyd was the stand in Captain, and he may, or may not, have consulted Wagg, or any other senior player during the games in which he captained. In fact, I would be surprised if he didn't. The team did extremely well under his captaincy, and I think it was shameful to have taken it away from him, at this point. He took the team to the top of the table, for goodness sake.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:38 pm
by Vetchetarian
Nick_Glam wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:34 pm
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:29 pm In my opinion, and I'm probably in a minority of one on this, Cooke's figure's prior to his injury are a red herring.
The team were on a roll, sitting at, or very near, the top of the table for the duration of his absence. That all took place on Lloyd's watch. Taking the captaincy off Lloyd was a mistake, and I don't say that in hindsight, as an earlier post of mine hinted at this. Cooke could have offered to let Lloyd continue as Captain at least for this current game. With the T20 coming up that would have been a good place to be. Failing that Cooke move, Maynard should have made the decision to retain Lloyd as Captain. He made a poor managerial decision in my opinion.

Cullen's dropping was also a poor decision. Where is the loyalty, the encouragement , for these youngsters to feed off ?

As stated earlier, I was anticipating a thrashing, and that's clearly on the cards.
I agree that Cullen should have played ahead of Douthwaite.

But Cooke was always going to return as captain and I think it's too simplistic to suggest that his return caused the failure of our batsmen.

Middlesex have much better players than we do and we have been punching above our weight all season. I think we were all anticipating a thrashing at some point. The only surprise is that it has taken so long this season.
Cooke's return as Captain could have waited until after the current championship games had been completed, i.e., after the current one.

At no time have I suggested that Cooke's return caused the batting failures.

Why change a winning set up ?

At the risk of repeating myself , I think Maynard is guilty of very poor management, both team, and individual.
Two golden rules of management, a) always praise in public, b) always criticise in private.
By demoting Lloyd and dropping Cullen, Maynard broke both those cardinal rules.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:16 am
by Vetchetarian
glamman wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:27 pm
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:25 pm
glamman wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:21 pm As the Glamorgan innings went on the ball was starting to keep low. They also got a number of poor decisions.
I really don't like excuses. What happened in Glam's first innings ? Did funny things only happen when they batted ?
Agree - we have batted, bowled and fielded poorly.
Not much else could have gone wrong, unless the 12th man dropped the drinks tray. Please tell me he didn't. :)

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:58 am
by glamman
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:38 pm
Nick_Glam wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:34 pm
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:29 pm In my opinion, and I'm probably in a minority of one on this, Cooke's figure's prior to his injury are a red herring.
The team were on a roll, sitting at, or very near, the top of the table for the duration of his absence. That all took place on Lloyd's watch. Taking the captaincy off Lloyd was a mistake, and I don't say that in hindsight, as an earlier post of mine hinted at this. Cooke could have offered to let Lloyd continue as Captain at least for this current game. With the T20 coming up that would have been a good place to be. Failing that Cooke move, Maynard should have made the decision to retain Lloyd as Captain. He made a poor managerial decision in my opinion.

Cullen's dropping was also a poor decision. Where is the loyalty, the encouragement , for these youngsters to feed off ?

As stated earlier, I was anticipating a thrashing, and that's clearly on the cards.
I agree that Cullen should have played ahead of Douthwaite.

But Cooke was always going to return as captain and I think it's too simplistic to suggest that his return caused the failure of our batsmen.

Middlesex have much better players than we do and we have been punching above our weight all season. I think we were all anticipating a thrashing at some point. The only surprise is that it has taken so long this season.
Cooke's return as Captain could have waited until after the current championship games had been completed, i.e., after the current one.

At no time have I suggested that Cooke's return caused the batting failures.

Why change a winning set up ?

At the risk of repeating myself , I think Maynard is guilty of very poor management, both team, and individual.
Two golden rules of management, a) always praise in public, b) always criticise in private.
By demoting Lloyd and dropping Cullen, Maynard broke both those cardinal rules.
I think most on this site would disagree. As far as I am concernd:

1. He did not demote Lloyd - he was the stand in captain.
2. With Cooke coming back someone had to be left out.
Cooke's scores this season prior to this game have been 4, 70*, 24, 26, 10, 29, 0, 161, 46, 41, 23*, 100, 38* so certainly not an issue. He is the club captain. He did not come straight back, playing 2s games where he scored 100 and 38* so showed he was batting OK. Cooke's 1st class average is 36 compared to Cullen's 24.
3. The lack of a quality spinner means that we need more bowling options so I guess that is why Douthwaite was selected ahead of Cullen. I am sure if the ECB had given us dispensation to play 12 in this game Cullen would have got in!

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:08 am
by hujon64
I agree with Glamman on this issue. Cooke was appointed Captain (and I presume Lloyd Vice-Captain) so Lloyd was only ever a stand-in, who to be fair has led us to a good position. I don’t believe you should demote someone just because they have had an injury. It was handled properly with Cooke playing 2nd team matches before returning and I’m sure Lloyd was fully informed. As for Douthwaite and Cullen, Douthwaite can bat and bowl whereas Cullen, with Cooke returning, would have to be chosen as a batsman. He has batted really well in the lower order so very unlucky. I am with Maynard on this one!

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:19 am
by Nick_Glam
Vetchetarian wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:30 pm " Suggestions " are just another way of saying " a friend of a friend " etc., and I place NO credibility, or reliability in these uncorroborated statements. Why wasn't Wagg made captain, if what you allude is true ?

Lloyd was the stand in Captain, and he may, or may not, have consulted Wagg, or any other senior player during the games in which he captained. In fact, I would be surprised if he didn't. The team did extremely well under his captaincy, and I think it was shameful to have taken it away from him, at this point. He took the team to the top of the table, for goodness sake.
You've said it yourself. He was the stand in captain so nothing was taken away from him. Cooke is the captain. Everybody knows that.

And as for who had taken us to the top of the table, I would personally give Maynard a heck of a lot more credit than Lloyd. He has made bold team selections all season and has instilled a lot more confidence in the team than last season.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:14 pm
by caergybi
In the bigger picture Glamorgan will be second going in to the break. Lancashire look like champions and we play them next.

Looks like Northants and Durham will join Middlesex in winning and all three will be 14 to 16 points behind Glamorgan. Quite likely all but Leicestershire will be in running for last two promotion places after Lancs.

Dome exciting games ahead.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:18 pm
by Vetchetarian
Well, I did say that I was probably alone in my views. No problem having different opinions. Nobody got hurt, nobody got insulted. On a nearby football forum, the insults and abuse would have been akin to a sunami. Got the juices flowing, as well. :)

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:23 pm
by notgoingoutreprise
Sometimes you just have to say well played to the opposition and just except we were not good enough

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:28 pm
by glamman
The Div 1 leaders look like they are going to suffer an innings defeat so can happen to anyone.

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:35 pm
by bobbly4
I think it was important that Cooke got the opportunity to play in this game given his importance to the T20 team. Given our depleted batting resources in t20 squad it is imperative that he is firing on all cylinders. Games just in the 2s would not be ideal preparation.

Cullen took his opportunity when it arose and has posed a selection conundrum. We should celebrate the fact that we have at last got some genuine selection dilemmas. For too long we have endured watching some mediocre players who are in the side for want of a better alternative. It's good to see some decent back up to keep the current team on their toes!

Re: Middlesex

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:44 pm
by Shamu
The gulf in class between Middlesex and Glamorgan was evident for all to see.

How many of the Glamorgan players would get anywhere near the Middlesex team ?

A further example will be evident in Colwyn Bay - even without James Anderson.

*Carey’s first spells were outstanding - but the second and third spells were awful - questions must be asked over his fitness levels.